Is this what the 21st century is going t

That's not health, though, is it?

It's an action that has led to a loss of health.

But to answer your question, maybe? You chose to leave your house that day and take that route

So if someone tosses a grenade through your window, it's your fault for leaving it open. And if someone shoots the window then tosses the grenade, it's your fault for having a window to begin with? When do we eventually get to, "Yea, they did everything they practically could, it wasn't really their fault"?

It just takes a rephrasing: maintaining your health is your responsibility

This only defeats that one example but ignored the point. Let's say the government lets companies pollute the air, and now your health is being undermined by the very air you breathe. Therefore it's your fault that your health is going down the drain? Assuming you can't afford to leave.

If walking around in a hazmat suit is what it takes for you to stay healthy, I'd recommend you do it. If you hope the government to fix your problems you're going to die

It doesn't really work like that. If you weren't in a government run society - then you have full control (or lack of control in some situations) of your own health and life. While living in a society, you interact with others and "give" to society through work. You can't PRACTICALLY be expected to walk around with a hazmat suit. You want the government to do what it can to protect you, it's kind of a main function of the government. It's not perfect, and in the end, you are the main protector of your own health. But the government has the power to influence your health. Imagine not being able to get X medical care because the government doesn't allow it. Again, assuming you can't afford to go out of the country to get this care, your government has just greatly affected your well-being.

I can choose to stay indoors all the time and deal with as few people as possible, and wash myself thoroughly every time I came back in. If I was actually scared that's what I'd do

Not practical because you're still likely of getting infected.. In fact, even if you wore a hazmat suit it wouldn't guarantee you don't get infected. The glass could break, suit could tear.

I can guarantee that's going to be way more effective than hoping for a solution from on high.

You can't exactly assume a whole population will do this effectively, and even those who do will still end up getting infected and infecting others. Viruses have evolved to infect people.

You're free to rely on anyone you want
It's not reliance on the government, it's wanting them to be able to handle a threat that you personally can't. I don't stand up for government interference, but this was interference suggested by health organizations.

Myself, I don't need or want the government looking after me

You don't want the government to limit air pollution that companies can create, the amount of dumping they can do, or even regulate the water in your plumbing? You don't want them to ensure that you're working in an environment that won't hurt you? For example, you don't work at a desk that's right next door to uranium isotopes? You wouldn't want to be notified by the government if they detected an airstrike heading towards your city? Do you realize how much the government already does look after you?

Yup. It would suck to be them. Maybe they should have looked after themselves better in the middle of a sanitary crisis (or just generally)

I'll be sure to pass along the message to everyone. You say this as if someone who's done nothing notably wrong can't suddenly be in a life threatening situation that would require hospitalization. You right now could go shopping and a guy with a gun could decide he doesn't like your face and give you a critical injury. Would you be grateful if you were saved by a hospital that was able to give you a bed? Or would you wake up and say, "Why the fuck did you guys save me!"

spends its money on costs rather than investments (e.g. industrialization, education, the healthcare system), so when something like this happens it's way worse.

If your own health is 100% on you, then the government doesn't matter. If you say our health is dependent 100% on us but the government helps, you've undermined the previous argument entirely.

However, I can agree that what's happening may not be best for many economies out there. But that doesn't necessarily mean it was the wrong call. I wouldn't know, and we may never actually know.

All of a sudden we're trying to understand cause and effect and making predictions? Huh.

I don't think I like this path. Clearly, we can know to some degree whether or not an action is beneficial or not. This varies depending on the action. There's no reason to think drinking bleach and tap dancing on your head will do anything beneficial to stop the coronavirus. Stopping people from going to work where it'll spread like wildfire has a lot of reasoning behind it. However, things aren't always so black and white, and you won't know the real significance of the act until you examine it later - potentially never.

I take issue with governments making us take the advice

I can definitely see why. I don't like government intervention as much as the next guy, but I'd say it's good that governments are prepared to do this should the need arise. The issue with this is that it's not an individual thing. It's not like you getting infected is the end. You go on and infect others who go on and infect others. It's not like voting, where it's just you and it barely matters. So the fact that some individuals may not like it doesn't mean they can keep everyone else home and not those who want to work.

I'm sorry. Do you prefer "fantasy"?

LOL. Fantasy is assuming you can not only know this for sure, but that future inventions leading to something similar are also impossible. It's not your field, and there's still much unknown. I'm sure the Wright Brothers looked delusional to anyone seeing them, especially after they failed so often. In fact, maybe they were.

There are just times when the laws of physics as we know it break down. Black holes, the big bang, quantum mechanics are the main examples of this. If you could survive going through a black hole... where would you end up? There's so much possibility, that it sound pretty ignorant to say so certainly that "X is not possible" even though it's been shown to be mathematically possible and isn't logically fallible such as other things which are mathematically possible.

And not only do you dismiss wormholes, but apparently the very idea that anything could be invented/discovered in the future that would allow convenient space travel possible?

Imagine not being able to get X medical care because the government doesn't allow it.

^^ happens every day. Rich old people travel to get what care they want from a place that does have it. Others have to do without.

You know how the US has that giant military budget because it maintains the military-industrial complex, because otherwise all those people would lose their jobs?

^^ we borrow it from China. The US has been in debt since it was created, for most of its history, with a few brief golden years where we paid it off, only to borrow more shortly after. We borrowed for the revolutionary war. We borrowed for the civil war. We have been borrowing off and on at increasing rates since the 30s depression. Idiotically, we borrow to give it away to poorer countries so they will be our 'allies' as well.

The military may be the only thing most governments worldwide manage to run without screwing it up too badly. Everything else touched tends to be a disaster if done on a large (relative to the country in question) scale.

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I'm not going to bother arguing about this because it has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Getting infected with coronavirus is something that's within your control. It's your own lookout if you choose not to take whatever actions are necessary to take care of yourself.

Let's say the government lets companies pollute the air, and now your health is being undermined by the very air you breathe. Therefore it's your fault that your health is going down the drain? Assuming you can't afford to leave.

You can't afford to leave but you can afford to grow progressively more sick? It's your life, man. The only person who's going to care for it is you.

You want the government to do what it can to protect you

Let me say this as clearly as I can: I don't want that at all. Maybe you do. I don't. I'd rather fall into ruin because of my own decisions or because I was too weak to defend myself than to depend on anyone else's protection.

In fact, even if you wore a hazmat suit it wouldn't guarantee you don't get infected.

It's not about guarantees. There are no guarantees in life. If I wanted to guarantee not to get infected with coronavirus I'd either kill myself or never leave the house again (so basically kill myself).

You can't exactly assume a whole population will do this effectively

I don't. I'm talking about myself. Why should I care what anyone else does?

You right now could go shopping and a guy with a gun could decide he doesn't like your face and give you a critical injury. Would you be grateful if you were saved by a hospital that was able to give you a bed? Or would you wake up and say, "Why the fuck did you guys save me!"

Why would I be grateful? My taxes pay for that service.
But if that happened and I needed a bed and there wasn't one available because there were a bunch of grandmas with coronavirus in the ICU, and I ended up dying, it would be my own fault for not being able to defend myself from that maniac. Now, I know what you're gonna say; you're gonna say "well, you say that now, but etc.". Well, I don't have to respond to someone who thinks they know me better than myself.

If your own health is 100% on you, then the government doesn't matter.

Yeah, it doesn't. I go to a private hospital. Fuck the public healthcare system. But I guess you'd care if you lived here, which is why I brought it up.

Stopping people from going to work where it'll spread like wildfire has a lot of reasoning behind it.

I never said social isolation is not an effective method to stop the spread of respiratory disease. I mean, there's a reason why I haven't had a flu or cold since 2010 (and that time it was because a professor came to work sick); it's because I haven't used public transportation since then and I mostly avoid people.
I'm saying in the long run we're going to be worse off.

There's so much possibility, that it sound pretty ignorant to say so certainly that "X is not possible"

I didn't say it was impossible, I said it's never going to happen. Those are distinctly different statements.

even though it's been shown to be mathematically possible

That's completely meaningless. All theoretical physics can tell you is that according to a given model some situation would not cause a contradiction. Just because relativity permits wormholes doesn't mean that they can actually exist. For example, it's entirely possible that the circumstances that could cause wormholes to form to be impossible.

And not only do you dismiss wormholes, but apparently the very idea that anything could be invented/discovered in the future that would allow convenient space travel possible?

Yup. I can do that because there's not a snowball's chance in hell that I'll be proven wrong in my lifetime, and after that I don't care. So nyah.

Getting infected with coronavirus is something that's within your control

However, you also say the only way to guarantee no-infection is death or complete home-isolation (the latter I disagree with).

You can't afford to leave but you can afford to grow progressively more sick? It's your life, man. The only person who's going to care for it is you

Not that I don't agree, but not everyone knows how to handle such a situation. If someone doesn't have enough money to do get what they need, that might be the end of all their options in their head - especially if the medical issue makes them physically immobile.

Believe me, I understand and agree with the sentiment. I think this way myself, but I also recognize the dependency our society creates. Your food and water are "ensured" to be safe by some standards. Planes don't fall out of the sky and crash into your house because they must meet certain requirements before a company can say it's ready for flight. The list goes on and on..

There are simply certain things YOU ARE making use of that keep you safe, healthy, and informed that come from the government. If you truly want none of it, you go into the wilderness:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_-w_T-t8aM

But if you're going to make use of it, then it seems a bit unfair to complain simply because you think it shouldn't be trying to protect you. After all, others are relying on the government to make the right call.

I don't. I'm talking about myself. Why should I care what anyone else does?

Preserve some lives? Lower the risk of the virus infecting you through someone else who has it?

Why would I be grateful? My taxes pay for that service.

Grateful the system exists?

Well, I don't have to respond to someone who thinks they know me better than myself

I wasn't going to say that, I have the same arrogance and independency. I'm pretty sure this all comes down to our different opinions on the progression of humanity.

However, I don't know where the hostility is coming from. If I make a wrong assumption about you, simply say it's wrong and we can move on. I'm not going to tell you you're wrong as if I could really know or somehow prove my prediction of your actions.

Yeah, it doesn't. I go to a private hospital. Fuck the public healthcare system. But I guess you'd care if you lived here, which is why I brought it up.

There are people who can't afford it. And you can't argue that it's because they aren't smart enough to get a good paying job or something. A system where someone like you can get a private hospital to go to is one where there are different social classes. There'll always be those at the bottom, or those at the top can't exist.

Though, what I suspect more you'll say is that you don't care about these people. But again, the government is for everyone, not you personally. So arguing the government is making a bad call because you don't benefit from it doesn't exactly make sense.

I'm saying in the long run we're going to be worse off

In the long run. I can assume you mean in the span of your lifetime or at most the span of the country's current government. You may be right, but it's also possible this avoided a worse case.

I didn't say it was impossible, I said it's never going to happen. Those are distinctly different statements

You said wormholes were magic - a claim equivalent to it being impossible. Even if you're only stating it's "never going to happen", you can't possibly prove that. I can't prove that it will happen, I can only show that the possibility exists and so it can happen.

Just because relativity permits wormholes doesn't mean that they can actually exist. For example, it's entirely possible that the circumstances that could cause wormholes to form to be impossible.

That's also true, but not yet known. Again, there's a lot to figure out about the universe. If the answers are found, then whether or not convenient space travel is possible can be better understood.

Yup. I can do that because there's not a snowball's chance in hell that I'll be proven wrong in my lifetime, and after that I don't care. So nyah.

A near-sighted argument, but I guess it doesn't matter much.

However, you also say the only way to guarantee no-infection is death or complete home-isolation (the latter I disagree with).

Yes. There's no contradiction there. The probability of getting infected is directly affected by your actions.

If you truly want none of it, you go into the wilderness

It's not like I haven't thought about it. For now I'm accepting the compromise. I can't guarantee I will never get sick of it all and become a hermit.
I will still complain about it, though.

Preserve some lives?

*Shrug*
Has nothing to do with me.

Lower the risk of the virus infecting you through someone else who has it?

I can manage my own risk, and I don't care if I'm infected anyway.

Grateful the system exists?

Nah. There's always been doctors.

However, I don't know where the hostility is coming from.

Don't take it so seriously.

There are people who can't afford it. And you can't argue that it's because they aren't smart enough to get a good paying job or something. A system where someone like you can get a private hospital to go to is one where there are different social classes. There'll always be those at the bottom, or those at the top can't exist.

Though, what I suspect more you'll say is that you don't care about these people. But again, the government is for everyone, not you personally. So arguing the government is making a bad call because you don't benefit from it doesn't exactly make sense.

Mmh... maybe you misunderstood. What I said was that the government spends its money on things that won't give a return on investment. If it had built more hospitals and/or increased the budget for the existing ones, we would be better prepared for this crisis. Now, this has basically no effect on me. I don't go to public hospitals and in any case I will almost certainly not fall seriously ill from coronavirus. I'm not saying this manner of spending is a bad call because it doesn't benefit me. I'm saying it's a bad call despite the fact it won't affect me.
But then again, the current ruling party (and the one that's ruled for 15 of the last 20 years) gets most of its votes from the lower classes, who do use those hospitals, so maybe people really do get the government they deserve.

You said wormholes were magic - a claim equivalent to it being impossible.

Don't take things so literally. "Magic" in the Arthur C. Clarke sense. Being able to travel instantly to the furthest stars would be basically magic.

A near-sighted argument

I'd say it's a grounded argument. :-)

Yes. There's no contradiction there. The probability of getting infected is directly affected by your actions.

You must realize the shaky ground that argument stands on. This is like saying that because you were hurt when the ground beneath your feet gave away you shouldn't have stepped outside to begin with. If you get shot and injured, it was because you couldn't dodge bullets or weren't wearing a vest. Hell, if you have a heart attack it's because you didn't have medical equipment in your home that could inform you of any changes to your blood flow.

At what point do we stop blaming people for things outside their control?

I will still complain about it, though.

Complain all you want, but do you think your basis for complaining is logical enough to debate? You said yourself you're compromising, so you already know it's not fully what you want - and the government wasn't built for you in particular.

*Shrug*
Has nothing to do with me.

I feel that you might be the type to say that but then would jump in front of a bullet to save someone.

I can manage my own risk, and I don't care if I'm infected anyway

Yes, if the population consisted of just Helios and Zapshes, the virus would be no biggie. However, the government is run by elected officials looking after all citizens, you knew this when you compromised. Therefore, while you can definitely complain, you can't expect to get your way.

Nah. There's always been doctors.

True, but there haven't always been societies where they have access to the tools they need and education required.

Don't take it so seriously.

♥

Being able to travel instantly to the furthest stars would be basically magic.

I find it depressing that I won't see what future tech looks like :( I wonder about how immersive video games will be. I've always wanted to be able to use my actual body to move my character, none of that controller stuff - but actually physically running and climbing. It mean you can only play for as long as your real life stamina, but hopefully we'll have immersive virtual reality.

The ground giving away beneath your feet isn't something you could have expected, but if you're likely to get in a firefight you should carry a gun. If you get a heart attack it's (probably) because you didn't take care of your body; it has nothing to do with what equipment you had or didn't have. Sure, some people have congenital heart problems. In that case it's possible all they could is delay the inevitable.
Respiratory illnesses already existed before and we've known for a good while how they propagate. It's not an unexpected threat to your life. If you go around sticking your fingers in people's mouths and then rubbing your eyeballs, or licking doorknobs to satify your weird fetish, of course you're going to catch whatever is floating around out there.

do you think your basis for complaining is logical enough to debate? You said yourself you're compromising, so you already know it's not fully what you want - and the government wasn't built for you in particular.

I don't follow the connection between the start of that sentence and the end. Because I already know what the government is like I don't have a basis to complain? Surely someone can settle for something and not be completely satisfied and envision how (or at least that) things could be better.

I feel that you might be the type to say that but then would jump in front of a bullet to save someone.

Nah, no way. That's (partly) why I don't want kids. I want to live my life for myself, not for the sake of someone else.

you knew this when you compromised.

True, but there haven't always been societies where they have access to the tools they need and education required.

The tools and the education exist because of the scientific revolution, not because governments exist.

If you go around sticking your fingers in people's mouths and then rubbing your eyeballs, or licking doorknobs to satify your weird fetish, of course you're going to catch whatever is floating around out there

As a student, I get sick every year. For some, getting sick puts them out of commission for a day or two. For me, I barely feel the sickness, main symptom is a runny nose, congestion when I go to bed (so I use a nasal spray if I need to) and sometimes I won't be able to smell things. Other than that, it's barely noticeable but I end up being sick for about a month straight. I assume because I recover from one strain and get infected by another.

Being in the same room as them for class is enough to make everyone catch it.

Because I already know what the government is like I don't have a basis to complain?

No, I meant you can always complain, but if you're going to debate it then it doesn't make sense. Most people wouldn't want a government the way you're describing, and the government is meant for the people.

That's (partly) why I don't want kids

You know, it's like being intelligent makes it less likely you'll pass down your genes. I also don't want kids. It's like this self-centered train of thought and knowing nothing really matters outside of our own heads. Just don't feel like I want to have a kid - it's almost like admitting defeat and giving my life away. On the other end, the dumber you are the more likely you're pumping out 20 children before you die. Maybe for the benefit of humanity you should donate your sperm Helios.

Well, no, because the isolation is unconstitutional

Perhaps, seems like a grey area in the U.S.:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2020/03/25/are-stay-at-home-orders-constitutional/#77b87d37104e

The tools and the education exist because of the scientific revolution, not because governments exist.

The scientific revolution is not possible without a government/society that can ensure citizens meet Maslow's Hierarchy of needs.

Being in the same room as them for class is enough to make everyone catch it.

It was an exaggeration for comedic effect.

Most people wouldn't want a government the way you're describing, and the government is meant for the people.

I don't know whether most people would prefer a smaller or larger government.

Maybe for the benefit of humanity you should donate your sperm Helios.

I already believe we're going to become extinct on this planet. Why would I care about humanity?
If I was like a super rich I'd pay to put my name on a gold plate aboard a space probe meant to exit the solar system.

The scientific revolution is not possible without a government/society that can ensure citizens meet Maslow's Hierarchy of needs.

I disagree.

Well, no, because the isolation is unconstitutional. The government is breaking the contract by implementing it without declaring martial law. Plus the judicial and legislative powers haven't worked for weeks. The separation of powers is a joke.

the isolation is not a law, it is a recommendation in most place in the US. A few places have, or briefly had, the police trying to enforce it and that, once challenged in the courts, will be a disaster for those areas that tried it. I am not sure a recommendation can be unconstitutional, but enforcement of a non law certainly is. The truth is though that the constitution is long dead, and any number of things not allowed are being allowed (gun control, for an easy one) and govt does any number of things not granted by it (some are obviously necessary, but were never added to the document via due process).

There is a grey area: if the isolation were made law, the cops can enforce that until it has been challenged in the courts. The courts can then either issue a stop for now order (stop enforcing until case is resolved) or allow enforcement to continue until the case is resolved. It usually takes years for cases to work thru the system to the SCOTUS. The govt can literally do just about anything for a year or two before being told to stop, at which point, it may be too late to fix.

The US is certainly at an interesting point in history. About 1/2 the people want government to be tiny and leave people alone, and about 1/2 want it to do everything for them including providing health, income, education, housing, and more.

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Well, I was talking about Argentina. Here it was actually passed as a presidential decree, and according to that decree you can be heavily fined or put in jail for violating the isolation. The thing is, the president doesn't have the power to unilaterally overrule the constitution, which clearly states that certain guarantees such as freedom of movement can only be suspended temporarily by declaring martial law. It's a joke no matter how you look at it because the police don't have the manpower to enforce it and the judicial system is backed up as it is. So, what, someone breaks isolation today and two years from now they seize their paycheck? What's the use of that?

About 1/2 the people want government to be tiny and leave people alone, and about 1/2 want it to do everything for them including providing health, income, education, housing, and more.

It was an exaggeration for comedic effect

Oh... So I'm the only one with that fetish..?

I don't know whether most people would prefer a smaller or larger government

Slippery statement, since even if most people would prefer a smaller government, once they had it they'd most definitely not be in favor of it anymore - at least here in the U.S. Many people wouldn't truly know what it would mean to have a smaller government. Most definitely the individual states didn't like a small government with the Articles of Confederation, and I highly doubt they'd like it now.

I already believe we're going to become extinct on this planet. Why would I care about humanity? If I was like a super rich I'd pay to put my name on a gold plate aboard a space probe meant to exit the solar system.

A wise man once said, "True, I’ve given up on the real world. However, I haven’t given up on myself."

I disagree.

I disagree back!

Slippery statement, since even if most people would prefer a smaller government, once they had it they'd most definitely not be in favor of it anymore

Keep it straight, man. You're the one who brought up whether people would want the same kind of government I want. Does it matter what people want or not?

Most definitely the individual states didn't like a small government with the Articles of Confederation

That was a good while ago, though. It's a different world, now.

Does it matter what people want or not?

Yes, because without the people, there would be no government - there would be no one to govern. Especially true in a democracy/republic - which is why I brought up what people want. People may like the idea of a smaller government, but they've become reliant on many features of a strong government.

It's a different world, now.

I'd argue that they've become much more depedent now. I don't think these states would survive without being unified by a strong central government.

At least phrased this way, I think those are not necessarily incompatible. You can have state-run services like education or healthcare without trampling all over people's right to self-determination.

That is true. The issue comes from paying for the state run services. Taking tons of money from people who work to give handouts to those who do not, basically, is the model desired by the extreme left at this point in time. There is a happy medium to that, but the extremists have taken over both sides over the last decade. There also do need to be some programs, and the extreme right would cut them all if it could.

I haven't been following Argentina. Sounds like their president screwed up, though. That will hopefully have stern but peaceful resolution eventually.

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People may like the idea of a smaller government, but they've become reliant on many features of a strong government.

a great many of us do not want or need many of the 'services' of big government. We rely on food, electricity, roads, military, local govt overreach, etc. We don't need them to tell us who we can marry or how much we need to put into a retirement account or what doctors we can see. We don't need a big % of our salary taken and given to some other country as 'aid'. If they want to take over my healthcare, it has to be identical to what the president and scotus get.

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a great many of us do not want or need many of the 'services' of big government

Those who get fired rely on unemployment payments (like right now!) until they can find their next job. People who find themselves turned down from a job or fired due to unprofessional reasons turn to the government who has created laws against it.

Just a few things from the top of my head. But I agree a great deal of their services don't actually help many people - or end up helping those who don't really deserve it.

Those who get fired rely on unemployment payments (like right now!) until they can find their next job.

This is sugar coating for tax the people working to give to those who are not. I am actually OK with that as an emergency power like this virus panic mess. I am less ok with it normally -- it should be treated as a (low or interest free) loan and paid back outside of emergencies like the present.

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I don't know how the system is fully implemented, but seems the maximum is normally up to 26 weeks - or about half a year. Depending on your situation, more or less.

Maybe you mean this more in terms of welfare.