Opinion on this claim

[367kGNh0]

Who's to say he wasn't illiterate? Who's to say someone else wasn't telling him what to do behind the scenes?

I myself had this question, allow me to look into it

[zapshe]

1) People can be that ignorant

I'm glad we agree. I'd call believing a book written by some scribe thousands of years ago with inaccurate science and contradictions as being ignorant 🤔 . Before believing something, even if it makes sense (which it doesn't..), you need evidence.

[zapshe]

I myself had this question, allow me to look into it

Don't bother, there's no reliable data to go off of. The point of religion is that you can't even find the answers to big questions because it happened so long ago with little reliable information.

[367kGNh0]

you need evidence.

Not exactly, well, some will have experienced a sort of miracle(TO THEM. OTHERS WILL FIND FLAWS). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNWrUYE8A-0

[zapshe]

And some experience 0 miracles:

Orlando Shooting, Volcano Eruptions, Tsunamis, Nuclear Bombs, etc..


A "miracle" doesn't exist. Things happen, 7 billion people in the world. Sometimes crazy things will happen, its probability. If you say "OMG IT MUST HAVE BEEN A MIRACLE FROM GOD!", then explain all the bad stuff that happens. Is God not present then?

[367kGNh0]

Don't bother, there's no reliable data to go off of. The point of religion is that you can't even find the answers to big questions because it happened so long ago with little reliable information.

to each is his own

[zapshe]

to each is his own

That doesn't make sense in this context. To each his own implies a difference in taste/opinion. I'm stating a fact.

[367kGNh0]

I mean some will find truth in divinity, others, will only accept with facts

[zapshe]

The issue is how do you determine divinity is true. If I say I'm divine, or I'm the reincarnation of Jesus or whatever, how do you know it's true? Answer: you wont! Simply, if I say I'm Jesus, you're going to ask me to prove it, you're going to be skeptical. However, a book tells you that God created you and everything blah blah, and you believe it.


“Tell people there's an invisible man in the sky who created the universe, and the vast majority will believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure.” ~George Carlin

[367kGNh0]

how do you determine divinity is true

I detect if the incredible sense obtained from worship is obtainable anywhere else

[helios]

But people of all sorts of faiths have described intense feelings when worshiping. So at least one of these possibilities must be true:
* They're lying or mistaken about their own feelings. If you think they're mistaken you have to consider the possibility that you yourself may be mistaken about your own feelings.
* God doesn't care about most aspects of a particular religion, including its mythology, most of its rituals, etc. All it cares about is worship.
* Worship is an entirely internal process in your brain, and therefore provides no information about the outside world.

In essence, worship is your brain drugging itself with neurochemicals it itself synthesizes. It's like arguing "I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and when I take LSD I get intense feelings relating to His Noodliness, therefore the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists!"
Or "I loved my cat Spoons, and when I remember him I get intense feelings of sadness about him, therefore Spoons must be part of the fundamental nature of reality!"

Your brain is just an electrochemical computer. It evolved to feel hunger, get horny, and be afraid of predators. Expecting it to use to draw conclusions about ultimate reality is just hopeless optimism.

[zapshe]

Emotions and feelings are as unreliable as it gets. You tell me that people feel and "experience" miracles and God - as if that's evidence. Well, let me tell you that I've never felt any of that, in fact, sometimes I feel and experience the absence of God. That's my counter argument, isn't it great?

If facts could be derived from how one feels instead of looking at facts, scientists and general debate rules wouldn't be so against them. Sometimes feelings are based on fact, in which case there is some logic to those feelings, but they're still unreliable. And even that isn't present in this case. There's no factual basis for these feelings, its just people wanting to believe in it. And as you've said, people can be ignorant.

It's pretty ignorant to not question your beliefs and yourself. "Why do I believe/not believe in God?" "Why do I feel this way when I worship?" "Was that a miracle or is there a logical explanation?"

If you don't ask yourself these questions and look at them with an unbiased viewpoint, you'll never get anywhere. As I said earlier, if I claimed to be Jesus you'd be skeptical and ask for proof. Ask yourself why believing in God doesn't require the same level of proof?

To answer my own question, it's because you're taught at a young age that it's real. When you're young and impressionable, before your BS meter develops, you're taught about God. As Bill Birr said, "I thought my religion made sense and everyone else's was stupid." When you actually listen to other people's religions, they make no sense, because they're passing through your BS filter. YOUR religion when told to you didn't have to pass that same filter. Without introspective thought and self-questioning, you'll never be able to examine why you believe your religion.

[367kGNh0]

When you actually listen to other people's religions, they make no sense, because they're passing through your insanity filter.

What about converts who were extremely devout to their prior religion but were won over?

But fine, clearly you wish not to accept the "feeling" argument.

So allow me to execute my one of my personal favourites, the predictions.

Authentic narrations of Islam's prophet Mohammed(ﷺ) have claimed several enforced occurences, millenia before their time. I'll do one.

(“Now, tell me of the Last Hour,” asked the man.

The Prophet replied, “The one asked knows no more of it than the one asking.”
“Then tell me about its signs,” said the man.
The Prophet replied, “That you see barefoot, unclothed Bedouins competing in the construction of tall buildings.” [2]
(where is the tallest building rightnow, and what was the state of that country only a century ago?))

[zapshe]

What about converts who were extremely devout to their prior religion but were won over?

Ask them why they switched over it was probably some illogical reason (like experiencing a miracle or sign). The only case of people switching over that we should actually look at is when they read their religious text, some other religious text, and then decide to switch over. In that case, that person isn't even logical anymore. Reading a religious text cover to cover will make you atheist. They didn't read the texts with understanding and discovering truth in mind, they went in with some other notion. Maybe the wanted to change religions, maybe they had a bad experience with their church or whatever, perhaps they saw friends going to that religion and decided to look into it.

There are so many factors that could lead to someone changing religions. Notice, however, that finding one religion more logical than the other is rarely the factor. Most religions have the same basis and stories, just slightly altered or added onto. If you read with a mindset of changing religions, then you're not reading in terms of "is this real?" You've already accepted all the illogical aspects and you're not really filtering anything.

But, for the majority of people this isn't the case. Their religion makes sense, other religions don't. Scientologists believe in what? Something you probably think is stupid. I don't think you'd convert to Hinduism any time soon.


If you want to argue, lets argue about why YOU believe in your religion, which I assume you're a Muslim. Are you aware of the story in there were the prophet literally murders a child because he was going to be a "bad son", and that their next child would be better?

[367kGNh0]

lets argue about why YOU believe in your religion

Please, the predictions, let's not talk about me, I am not relevant, this is about faith itself.

Are you aware of the story in there were the prophet literally murders a child because he was going to be a "bad son", and that their next child would be better?

From what I've heard from multiple sources, the person (I dont know if he was of prophet status) took the life of the boy, because he was very unfaithful to his devout parents, and in islam children who have not surpassed 15 go to heaven, so maybe death is worth eternal pleasure

[helios]

Authentic narrations of Islam's prophet Mohammed(ﷺ) have claimed several enforced occurences, millenia before their time. I'll do one.

(“Now, tell me of the Last Hour,” asked the man.

The Prophet replied, “The one asked knows no more of it than the one asking.”
“Then tell me about its signs,” said the man.
The Prophet replied, “That you see barefoot, unclothed Bedouins competing in the construction of tall buildings.” [2]
(where is the tallest building rightnow, and what was the state of that country only a century ago?))

As far as I know, no building in Dubai was designed or built by nomadic people.
It would be very strange for desert nomads to go around naked, since that kills most people in the desert, and even stranger for them to build tall buildings; what's the point of building something large that you can't carry with you when you inevitably move somewhere else? It sounds like the author chose a very flowery way of saying that the thing in question ("the last hour") will never happen.

If you want to interpret it as a true prophesy, you need to show that the world is about to end.

[zapshe]

From what I've heard from multiple sources, the person (I dont know if he was of prophet status) took the life of the boy, because he was very unfaithful to his devout parents, and in islam children who have not surpassed 15 go to heaven, so maybe death is worth eternal pleasure

Yea, isn't it great? I should have killed myself years ago! Would have gotten a ticket to paradise. In fact, lets have all children die before 15 so they can go to heaven too. Brilliant idea I've come up with. I mean, why take the chance of living longer and going to hell?

Do you see what's happening here? Another issue with faith is that there is a LOGICAL path from believing in this mystic stuff to doing HORRIBLE things. Not because they're bad people, but because they believe. Do you think 9/11 was done by people who thought they were evil? These people prayed and think they're going to heaven.

The story only serves to push this crazy idea. Not only that, there's something called change and free will. That child could have grown up to be anything, but he was killed instead. And why that child in particular? Why not kill all children who are going to be 15 soon and are bad? There's no logic to any of this, he just killed a child for no reason.

IF I KILLED A CHILD, I promise you the excuse "he was bad but he's going to go to heaven now" wouldn't fly with anyone, including you. You wouldn't accept that excuse EVER, until it was the excuse of the prophet.


Also, you're not responding to my main points. This is barely a debate.

[367kGNh0]

And why that child in particular? Why not kill all children who are going to be 15 soon and are bad? There's no logic to any of this, he just killed a child for no reason.

This is because god reavealed to him it was that specific child, and ofcourse a god would be all knowing. You ask, why did he bring the boy to live in the first place? simply, this boy's fate was a test for the one who witnessed his demise, for he would see his death and judge the killer as a bad person. Thus bringing up the lesson, do not judge too quickly.

"Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn, god do you learn"-Vernon Law

It would be very strange for desert nomads to go around naked, since that kills most people in the desert, and even stranger for them to build tall buildings; what's the point of building something large that you can't carry with you when you inevitably move somewhere else? It sounds like the author chose a very flowery way of saying that the thing in question ("the last hour") will never happen.

However it does resemble the prediction. The clothing just is not correct, but the competition in building is certainly happening.
I don't see what you mean here:

and even stranger for them to build tall buildings; what's the point of building something large that you can't carry with you when you inevitably move somewhere else? It sounds like the author chose a very flowery way of saying that the thing in question ("the last hour") will never happen.

[zapshe]

This is because god reavealed to him it was that specific child, and ofcourse a god would be all knowing. You ask, why did he bring the boy to live in the first place? simply, this boy's fate was a test for the one who witnessed his demise, for he would see his death and judge the killer as a bad person. Thus bringing up the lesson, do not judge too quickly.

If I murdered a child who would have grown up to be bad for the moral lesson of "don't judge too quickly", would you accept that? No, you wouldn't. Why accept it now?


Again, you've completely dodged all the important points. Adam and Eve vs Evolution, heavens/world/universe created in 6 days, it says somewhere in there that the stars will one day "fall", the small biological error of semen being said to be produced between the backbone and ribs, the ignorance of the female "egg" when talking about reproduction (speaks as if sperm is the only factor), birds flying is because of the power of God, etc..

And be careful when reading translations, they tend to change slight wordings in order to cover up the inconsistencies.

Edit: Purely, if you find a scientific claim in religion, it's either wrong or written after the fact it was already discovered to be true. Lets not forget that it states the Earth and Heavens are held in place and don't move; there are also several mentions of how the Sun and Moon orbit the Earth.

[helios]

However it does resemble the prediction. The clothing just is not correct, but the competition in building is certainly happening.
I don't see what you mean here

It's not a prediction, you just don't understand your own scripture.

Let's go over the passage again.

“Now, tell me of the Last Hour,” asked the man.

The Prophet replied, “The one asked knows no more of it than the one asking.”
“Then tell me about its signs,” said the man.
The Prophet replied, “That you see barefoot, unclothed Bedouins competing in the construction of tall buildings.”

This doesn't say "someday Bedouins will build tall buildings". The man is asking how to know when the world will end, and Mohammed answers that nomads will build tall buildings. Nomads move from place to place constantly, so they never build permanent structures. Why would they, when they're going to leave in a few weeks or months? Like when someone says "when pigs fly", Mohammed is saying "the world will end when something impossible happens". Or in other words "the world will never end".

If it's a prediction, it's totally wrong: the people from UAE are almost entirely not Bedouins, and the world is not ending.