Ego?

[Duthomhas]

still it's his opinion and it's a legitimate opinion

Having an opinion does not legitimize that opinion.

He can have his own opinions.

Of course he can.

So you should expect that.

I expect not to be blasted with garbage speech on this forum. I have already explained how most forums explicitly prohibit hate speech, and though this forum does not explicitly proscribe it, it does ask for civil discourse and warn that uncouth language can get your posts deleted and your account banned.

Being bigoted is not the same as being a troll.

I didn’t call him a troll.

People who legitimately believe in something should not be judged.

Bull pucky. That’s exactly the kind of moronic thinking I’ve been lambasting this entire thread.

Whether you dislike them is up to you, but there is no notion of everybody hates you.

I’m not sure what the antecedent of your second clause is.

If you are saying everyone shouldn’t hate suyashsing234, I agree. I don’t hate him. I dislike the language he was using.

If you are saying you think I feel put upon, then stop. I don’t.

There are no rules in this forum about the nature of the discussions that happen in this subforum.

Um, wrong. Try again.

I have already posted a link to the injunction for civil discourse. But since people don’t believe in clicking links, here is the full text:

admin wrote:

Welcome to the lounge forum in C++.com!

In this forum, users can to talk about topics other than programming.

Feel free to participate in a constructive and polite way in any topic of this category. Messages may be deleted or moved without prior notice and may prompt the suspension of user accounts.

emphasis mine

That is the owner’s very nice way of saying, don’t spout crap and I won’t have to discipline you.

So we DON'T have the right to police this forum and say what's wrong and what's not wrong, rather we can suggest what's inappropriate but whether it really is inappropriate is up to the person who hosts this forum.

It would seem that you have not been here as long as some of the rest of us. There are several hot-button topics we have all more-or-less agreed not to discuss because of the tension it causes. (Like religion.)

And the idea you cannot tell someone their language in a public forum is unacceptable is nonsense. The guy who owns cplusplus.com likes to let people handle stuff themselves, and prefers not to get involved if he can avoid it. I rather think it is because he figures we are all adults (or close enough) and can deal with stuff like adults.

I'm not saying it's wrong to report him. It's right because this is something that is likely to be considered as inappropriate.

It was inappropriate.

So, ask yourself, what exactly are you trying to contribute to this thread? More derailment? An apologism?

Or disagreement with my assessment of faux intellectualism permeating our society and making online forums hostile places?

Because it doesn’t read much like the latter.

[Grime]

Duthomas wrote:

Having an opinion does not legitimize that opinion.

You're changing the context in which I said that. When did I say all opinions are correct? Obviously not. But everybody is allowed to have their own opinion and that is rightfully their 'opinion', nobody has the right to judge anybody for their opinions.

Duthomas wrote:

Of course he can.

Exactly.

Duthomas wrote:

I expect not to be blasted with garbage speech on this forum. I have already explained how most forums explicitly prohibit hate speech, and though this forum does not explicitly proscribe it, it does ask for civil discourse and warn that uncouth language can get your posts deleted and your account banned.

There is no PUBLIC forum of discussion that doesn't get hate/garbage/troll/spam, if a forum appears to be free of such stuff then it's because of the moderators of that forum. Here's the thing, our forum isn't that well moderated, so you SHOULD expect all of that stuff.

I'm not justifying Suyash, I'm pointing out the wrong use of "troll".

Duthomas wrote:

I’m not sure what the antecedent of your second clause is.

If you are saying everyone shouldn’t hate suyashsing234, I agree. I don’t hate him. I dislike the language he was using.

If you are saying you think I feel put upon, then stop. I don’t.

Again, I was talking about the wrong use of the word "troll". You can dislike an opinion of a person but you don't have the right to brand him a "troll" for that opinion.

Why do you think I was referring to you? No I wasn't.

Duthomas wrote:

It would seem that you have not been here as long as some of the rest of us. There are several hot-button topics we have all more-or-less agreed not to discuss because of the tension it causes. (Like religion.)

And the idea you cannot tell someone their language in a public forum is unacceptable is nonsense. The guy who owns cplusplus.com likes to let people handle stuff themselves, and prefers not to get involved if he can avoid it. I rather think it is because he figures we are all adults (or close enough) and can deal with stuff like adults.

Yes so first tell him to quite down, that's good and fine. I never said I was against that rather I was in favor as I had said in that post. But there's no need to become kiddish and start calling a person as a "troll".

Duthomas wrote:

So, ask yourself, what exactly are you trying to contribute to this thread? More derailment? An apologism?

I'm derailing the thread, of course. Obviously it wasn't the topic by the time I posted that.

Duthomas wrote:

Or disagreement with my assessment of faux intellectualism permeating our society and making online forums hostile places?

Why do you think I was disagreeing with you? That post wasn't just for you. I didn't even read your post how would I disagree with you?

My post was my disagreement with calling Suyash a "troll". He was never intentionally trying to be rude he legitimately follows that opinion. Everybody burps sometimes, and I know for a fact that you have overreacted sometimes as well (and almost scared away a forumer) so nobody is perfect.

This is a "discussion". No point if you are going to try to disprove all my posts.

[Duthomhas]

LOL, here we go again.

So, I will accept that you worded your response poorly, and were just upset at the (injudicious) use of the word “troll”. And I’ll ignore the lovely word twisting about the validity of opinions you are engaging in.

So, your opinion, as stated by you, reads:

  • Nobody has the right to judge another for bad opinions.
  • I should accept hate speech because this forum is “[not] that well moderated”.
  • Discussions are pointless if I express disagreement with your opinion.

Oh, and:

  • You haven’t bothered to read one or more posts in this thread, yet still feel entitled to an opinion on its content.

I think you are proving my point.


^{_{Because so far, you seem to have completely missed it.}}



I’ve grown tired of this. I think I might be done here.

[Grime]

So, I will accept that you worded your response poorly, and were just upset at the (injudicious) use of the word “troll”. And I’ll ignore the lovely word twisting about the validity of opinions you are engaging in.

When did I say I was upset? I was pointing to the wrong use of the word, yes.

• Nobody has the right to judge another for bad opinions.

+ You don't have to try to change other people's opinions, YES.

• I should accept hate speech because this forum is “[not] that well moderated”.

I said that you should expect hate speech. Why did I say that? BECAUSE YOU SAID you expect everything to be ideal and perfect. Don't change the context and pretend naive.

• Discussions are pointless if I express disagreement with your opinion.

Discussions are pointless if you don't have the willingness to understand or consider the opinion in question (talking about my opinion not Suyash').

• You haven’t bothered to read one or more posts in this thread, yet still feel entitled to an opinion on its content.

Do I have to read all of your posts and write a reply to all of them? No I don't. Guess what there are other people replying to this thread other than just you. ;)
I can write an opinion on the topic.

I think you are proving my point.

Just a bland sentence with no explanation. What point? Which point? How point? Why point?

[helios]

If I may jump in, I think the accusation of trolling gets thrown around rather easily whenever a very unpopular opinion is voiced. To call suyashsing234 a troll based solely on what has been posted here implies that no one could sincerely hold his opinions (or that no one would be dumb enough to express them publicly), which I think is rather naive or at best very optimistic.

Just because a post generates a strong reaction doesn't mean the poster intended it that way. I can easily accept that suyashsing234 hasn't examined his ideas hard enough to see how they're misogynistic, and how voicing them publicly would generate the reaction he got. I've seen people say much more horrible things in person.

[z05DSL3A]

helios wrote:

I think the accusation of trolling gets thrown around rather easily whenever a very unpopular opinion is voiced.

Agreed...it's probably getting to the point where it only has to be a difference of opinion to have someone call you a troll...but them I believe only one person called suyashsing234 a troll and I don't know what interaction they have had in the past, so this seems to be a lot of fuss over not very much.

Trolling has gone the same way as hacking in the eyes of the normies and the media. For the most part they are benign but focus is forced on the 'badness' side of it giving the labels a 'evil' conceptualisation.

[lastchance]

@suyashsing isn't a troll and most of his posts have been c++ related and generally interesting, occasionally amusing.

Sorry, @suyashsing, but I think you are a bit young and naive and may not realise how inadvertently offensive some of those views can be.

I've been happily married for more than half my life and have two university-age daughters on whom I dote. I hope to see them grow up in a world where their abilities are recognised just as much as their male peers.

Can we leave it there? @suyashsing and @grime are decent and rapidly-improving coders; just maybe had a few less life experiences than some of us.

[Grime]

Duthomhas, have no hard feelings for you (though I know you probably hate me by now). I donno I just felt like saying.

Life is too short.

[coder777]

@suyashsing isn't a troll

Of course he's a troll. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Tell me what criteria is not fulfilled?
What was his motivation when he derailed the thread from ego to misogyny here:

http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/lounge/250060/2/#msg1103711

?

That he's celebrated as a hero in his brave fight against women?

Just to add:
Even if he's troll, everything said here remains valid.

To call suyashsing234 a troll based solely on what has been posted here implies that no one could sincerely hold his opinions (or that no one would be dumb enough to express them publicly)

No, it's only about him and how he acts here.

but them I believe only one person called suyashsing234 a troll and I don't know what interaction they have had in the past

Can't remember having any interaction in the past with him.

[helios]

What was his motivation when he derailed the thread from ego to misogyny?

The topic of this thread is the cause of bad/antisocial behavior, which ego is proposed as a possibility. suyashsing234 proposed another, which is that society (and women) promotes such behavior. The rest of his posts in this thread can be explained as him trying to defend his own position as not misogynistic, after he got a response he wasn't expecting.
Yes, the thread was derailed, but is that what was intended?

Your explanation for the derailment is shits and giggles. I say his behavior is consistent with that of a bigot who doesn't know he's a bigot but knows that it's bad to be called a bigot. Furthermore, his other posts on the forum have convinced me that he's also not particularly bright (sorry suyashsing234). If he's a troll, he's a very dedicated troll.

EDIT: After browsing some old threads, I'm going to change my position to "undecided".
http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/lounge/223394/
http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/lounge/227338/

[Satan]

he's also not particularly bright

That was unnecessarily rude.

[helios]

How would you have phrased it politely?

[E0p9LyTq]

he's also not particularly bright

Or......

English is at least his 2nd language, still learning many of the basics of it.

[coder777]

So it may be possible that he acts like a troll but not on purpose...

By the way: Happy world woman day today

[E0p9LyTq]

So it may be possible that he acts like a troll but not on purpose...

He might also not have learned fully that when dealing with people from around the world that there will be cultural differences that can be seen to be trollish in nature to some people who have a different cultural outlook.

[Grime]

I'm being serious. What's next? What's after deciding whether a person is a troll? Ignoring him in the future even if he makes legit topics? But WHY?

Is it fair to ignore future legit topics because one person was rude in a thread ONCE? No it's not. If everybody ignored the person even when he makes legit topics, then that person realizes that he cannot ask legit questions anymore.

Okay, he cannot ask legit questions anymore, what do you think he's gonna do if he's gonna be in this forum? He'll become an actual troll, and I'm sure he would have some hate for the people who are ignoring him (so that's his fuel - hate towards particular forumers).

Was it worth losing a forumer who was rude/trollish once - in exchange for an actual troll?

Now consider which forum we're talking about. This forum is not well moderated. If we have a full fledged troll over here, he could ruin the entire forum. Especially because of the report function.

Okay maybe we can get him banned eventually; but all he has to do is make a new account.

Or what else could you do after deciding that he was a troll? Ask for apology? He definitely will not give one, then what? Back to the previous equation?

[Grime]

How would you have phrased it politely?

The only time you have to "phrase" that a person is not "bright" is when they actually have a problem (mental health), and even then you have to be extra careful.

Otherwise you're being rude. Moreover you cannot judge somebody's intelligence from half way across the world by looking at text on the screen.

What will you achieve by stating that he's "not bright"? You're only going to provoke him.

[helios]

The only time you have to "phrase" that a person is not "bright" is when they actually have a problem (mental health)

That's absurd. Intelligence is a spectrum, not a dichotomy. Why is it less acceptable to say that one person is less intelligent than another than to say that one is shorter than another? Or are you saying you would only say the latter when one of them is a dwarf?

you cannot judge somebody's intelligence from half way across the world by looking at text on the screen.

How do you know what I can't judge, sitting half way across the world from me?

What will you achieve by stating that he's "not bright"?

Exactly the same I achieve by calling him a bigot or a misogynist. I'm not really saying anything about suyashsing234, I'm talking about my perception of him. I could be wrong. From here he appears prejudiced and dumb, but maybe I'm just being trolled. Maybe he's that "joke's on them, I was only pretending to be retarded" kind of troll.

But if he's not a troll nor any of those things, then perhaps he can correct his own behavior. In order to do so, he needs to be told. If you were doing something stupid under the mistaken belief that it's a good idea, would you not want to be told?

[Satan]

Helios how would you feel if I told you that you weren't bright?

Being prejudiced doesn't make a person unintelligent. There are more factors than that (for being prejudiced).

[helios]

Helios how would you feel if I told you that you weren't bright?

I would want to know why you said that and if I can convince you to look at things from my point of view. If you managed to convince me of your own point of view, I would want to improve myself, if possible. If not I would at least cease that behavior, since I don't enjoy being perceived that way.
I think it's reasonable that if you don't want to look stupid and can't help yourself you should not do things that will make you look stupid.

Being prejudiced doesn't make a person unintelligent.

One can be both without there being a causal connection.